英語板対応スレ@Wiki The katakana haters club

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darg -> The katakana haters club (8/27/2006 3:18:45 PM)

Sign up here if you hate katakana.

In a word, it can be evil. I absolutely hate trying to figure out how to change names or transliterate English words into katakana as I'm almost always wrong. Look at words like カリフォルニア or オークション and tell me you couldn't think of a few different ways to spell them depending on whose English you based them on. Katakana is currently the bane of my existence - my bitter rival.[>:]

Ok, insert your reasons for severely disliking katakana here.


Sagredo -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/27/2006 6:27:18 PM)

raises hand to be added to the list **

I think I have complained on several occasions on this board already, http://this thread (to kana or not to kana) has some interesting stories.

When I was starting to learn hiragana and katakana, it once took me some time to understand that the word that I was reading was actually the capital to my home country. My teacher thought that was very funny. And it sometimes gives me a headache to search for artists or movies in the video/cd rental store - I have to think of how to spell their names, or what the movie is translated as.

And I too always seem to choose the wrong spelling - should I use a small tsu or not, how about ー ... Ah!


sarumo -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/27/2006 8:04:36 PM)

A bit strange,but my reason for not quite hating,(but intensely disliking to a level easily mistake for hate), is that it gives Japanese people an excuse to just not bother with regard to foreign(typically english) words.
Personally from a reading perspective I think it's good brain work, from a writting perspective I have three ways to write my own last name for goodness sake.

Ban katakana tomorrow and in 12 months the whole country will have better grasp of English.(and a bit of german,fench,portugeuse,etc).


boogaloo -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/27/2006 8:45:49 PM)

Mainly because my name when pronounced in Katakana becomes something completely different to what I know and because of this its very hard to explain to people how to really pronouce it. I do`nt misspronounce Japanese names but its O.K for Japanese to completely misspronounce mine......This is one of my major gripes[:@]



zorro13 -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/27/2006 9:04:42 PM)

Yup, I hate katakana.

Japanese are too lazy to come up with their own words for stuff so they just use katakana. There are plenty of kanji that could be used in compounds to create now words, but modern Japanese can't seem to be bothered with it.

In the past they used to do as I mentioned, just look at words such as 電話, 英国,電車... and similar. But in these modern times they just take english and convert it into katakana.



JWB -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/27/2006 10:09:23 PM)

I like Katakana because it's easier than Hiragana.



Good_Jorb -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/27/2006 10:28:55 PM)

Creatation of new words, I can understand the katakana, as that is what loan words are suppose to do. The problem with katakana I think is basically two things, one it is slowly killing the Japanese language. Two, the meaning of the words incorporated are almost always used in the wrong way and rarely close to the, proper pronounication which does nothing by damage Japanese people ability to speak good english.

A third minor point is and this is my fault, often I forget to pronounce words in Katakana style and use the english pronouncation of the word instead, which sometime results in confusion.



DerekJ -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/27/2006 11:13:38 PM)

Great post! Katakana is the bain of my existence. The problem is that I can't get my English brain around how a Japanese speaker sees an English word. Very frustrating. I find myself almost skipping over katakana when encountered. [>:]

reisender -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/27/2006 11:16:23 PM)

Oh yay! One of my old threads. Here's the proper link

I have a hard time too reading simple words from English. Sometimes I come across some words which surprised me, before figuring it out reading it, if I needed to say that word, I would have pronounced it much differently in katakana.

Dosanko_Wannabe -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/27/2006 11:22:32 PM)

Sometimes I think katakana is harder than kanji
I can speed read a full page with hundreds of kanji..yet when it's katakana I gotta slooow down and think about what I'm reading[:-]


Sagredo -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/27/2006 11:28:00 PM)

Ah, sorry, just now I noticed I seriously f$%ked up the link. ゴメン (katakana intended ;)!

I also agree with what boogaloo wrote about changing names. I don't really mind people changing my name because they sometimes need katakana, but when I can *only* write my name in katakana on very serious documents, I am baffled. That person with that name doesn't even exist, as it surely is not written like that in my passport. Why can't they "get with the program" and realise that foreigner's names can not always be replaced with katakana??


Kdynamic -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/28/2006 12:03:24 AM)

I want to march in the anti-katakana parade! It drives me crazy when I try six different katakana spellings and none of them are right and I can't for the life of me figure out how to spell a word. Sometimes I look up more words English --> katakana in the dictionary for a document I am writing in Japanese than English --> Japanese, just to figure out how to spell the damn words! And it's hard to read too. And they are really REALLY hard to translate when a word that is being used is neither Japanese NOR English and the connotations are basically unknowable unless, well, you already know. Newly minted katakana words that might have come from English originally but have diverged from the English meaning, and have not yet entered dictionaries or aquired a standardized meaning in Japanese are unlookupable sometimes and give me a headache.



soltanto_mia -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/28/2006 2:15:27 PM)

raises hand*

sweating nervously::
[&:]
although, I must admit I find it useful to know how to pronounce place names in Europe sometimes


Sagredo -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/28/2006 2:21:33 PM)

Nope, doesn't work :) Recently I was explaining to people about a colleague who moved to Brussels. I tried *all* possible pronunciations, including some rather incorrect ones (sagredo-style katakanized), and the people I was trying to convey the message to just didn't get it ... until someone said something else, in my ears rather similar to what I said, and they all said "aaah....." ..... [&o]

yes, I know you said sometimes, but still ... :)



soltanto_mia -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/28/2006 2:34:33 PM)

quickly puts hand down::

sits on hands::

I am sorry Europeans! [X(]

clears throat*

ehm, put me down on that list anyways. katakana is fun to hate.
cheers and a gay smiley to that! [:)]


m477 -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/28/2006 3:19:09 PM)

The thing that really drives me insane is video stores. Probably about 90% of the titles are written in Katakana. The irony is that kanji is supposed to be so much harder, but it easy to just glance at some kanji and tell what it says, whereas with the relatively simple katakana script forming words from my native language, it actually takes much longer as I have to sound it out in my head.


Kdynamic -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/28/2006 3:54:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sagredo

Brussels

I had to look that one up out of curiosity.... ブリュッセル [&o] No way I would have guessed that. Sometimes the katakana comes from the original pronunciation (like, not the English pronunciation) and other times it goes through English or another language (like how it's メキシコ instead of メヒコ)... and there's just no way to know.


reisender -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/28/2006 4:00:10 PM)

Definitely, looking for a movie in the video store is quite a task. If you want to find an older movie that isn't in the "recent videos" (aka 3 years ago in N.A.) trying to find your movie alphabetically is a チャレンジ. You're lucky if the title hasn't been changed.



boogaloo -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/28/2006 4:30:04 PM)

Imagine if you come from Wales and you live here

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch

Now that could be one awfull Katakana head-ache especially if your name is Harry Llewhelling aswell.



Sagredo -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/28/2006 4:32:35 PM)

I can't help but feeling slightly relieved that you also didn't know ;) I think it is the "ブリュッ" part that I could never think of. But the thing was, I pronounced it in English, Dutch and French (Brussels, Brussel and Bruxelles) and they still didn't know!

メヒコ is also a good example. And yep, there's just no way to know, absolutely right. But that's very frustrating sometimes!


karbonara -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/28/2006 4:40:19 PM)

I like katakana words. In most cases they sound more exciting and modern than their kanji counterparts, and I like that the Japanese import loan words on their own terms by forcing new words into the kana syllabary. Much better compared with Sweden, where many new loan words are pronounced just like in their respective languages which imo sounds downright odd [&:]

The problem that (mainly English-speaking) foreignerns have with katakana probably boils down to the fact that they take for granted that all Western loan words are taken from English, and some even seem to think that katakana words actually _are_ English, making them pronounce チャレンジ as challenge and so on. Also, we have those who refuse to go to a Japanese McDonalds because they want Japan to be 100% Japanese. [:-]

Katakana is Japanese, treat it that way! [:)]


butakun -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/28/2006 5:07:58 PM)

The thing with Brussels is that the Japanese pronunciation is not even standardized in fact. It seems that the Japanese institutions here in Brussels are trying to standardize on ブリュッセル to minimize the confusions, but ブラッセル is used just as often in colloquial speech, very rarely but sometimes ブリュクセル. Anyhow, me thinks you guys shouldn't expect katakana words as being even remotely related to the original words. haha. Too bad Japanese lacks a lot of vowels/consonants, and the mapping is far from bijective.

Hayakawa -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/29/2006 5:58:10 AM)

I really like Katakana~~^^ I think it's quite easy to understand what the English is once you been exposed to it quite a lot... You'll get used to it one day and come to like it ^_^



DerekJ -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/29/2006 8:49:40 AM)

Well, unfortunately, it is a fact of life that it is a part of Nihongo. Don't have to like it though. [:@]



Kdynamic -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/29/2006 9:42:23 AM)

I seriously doubt I will ever come to like it. [&:]


GoodFright -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/30/2006 12:41:49 AM)

You can look up inシネマクラブ洋画篇(published by キネマ旬報社) for original title & Japanese title. For the latest titles you can check out film magazine 「ロードショー」「キネマ旬報」「cut」「invitation」and etc.
How would you feel if anyone claimed 'I don't like (part of) alphabet. Peope from US/UK are too lazy to learn kanji or even kana to label the video title '七人の侍' instead of 'Seven Samurai'
Give me a break. You are lazy enough not to try to research of the easiest kind(Goggle, Yahoo or Excite). And call us lazy?
All you guys, who are staying in Japan (or if you are just learning--Stop and pick another language for everybody's sake), should realize where you are now.
I don't urge you to call our country 'Nihon' instead of 'Japan' or 'Japon'. But your French, English or other European languages are not supposed to be understood. Here is not even Europe.
You are not in Rome.(Or Roma) As long as you are in Asia or Africa, you can disrespect the native culture or language. Is that your proverb to be continued? And you want to build 'YOUR COUNTRY' like Australia or America?
GET OUT OF HERE!(Take it literally.) NOT AGAIN.
Seriously I don't appreciate that anyone criticize our language especially here in Japan


solidusx3 -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/30/2006 8:18:58 AM)

LOL, talk about taking things too seriously.


darg -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/30/2006 9:15:21 AM)

It's Google, and the letter 'y' is totally redundant and useless if you think about it.[:-]

darg -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/30/2006 9:23:02 AM)

I think sarumo had a good point above as well - katakana, in addition to being annoying as hell to a lot of foreigners, also has a tendancy to become a hinderance in learning proper pronunciation in foreign languages for many Japanese. I had a Japanese book written in romaji for the first little bit of my studies and I think it held me back a little, so I can only imagine what it would be like to have that crutch for years and base all your pronunciations on a system that doesn't accurately portray the material.


RAN -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/30/2006 10:21:48 AM)

Katakana sucks! I think that it does give Japanese people a bad crutch to lean on since it in no way represents the english language. And I hate hearing our language mutilated like that.

I wasn't going to post, but I decided to irritate goodfright[>:][>:][>:]


BTW the one I hate the most is おらんど How is that even close to the real word?
(for some reason wakan doesn't seem to have Katakana)

Pokan -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/30/2006 11:07:09 AM)

What is おらんど?

Kdynamic -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/30/2006 11:08:36 AM)

I think what people were saying is that they would rather the video said 七人の侍! The problem is when if they decided to write it セヴェンサムライ (just an example, since in Japan it's written in normal Japanese for that movie). The point was writting things in Japanese is better than writing them in hard to find and understand katakana approximations of English that make no sense.

Actually, you've got it backwards. The problem comes from Japanese people taking English, mutilating it into katakana, and then using it as they please. If any language is being disrespected in this process, it's English, not Japanese. Why don't YOU Japanese use your own language instead of trying to use English and confuse everyone? Respect your own language before yelling at others to respect it.

逆に、日本人が英語の言葉を勝手に取って好きなように使うのは英語に失礼ではないですか?カタカナで書くと、その英単語の発音も意味もめちゃくちゃになっってしまって、耳障りですよ。

Are you saying there is NOTHING about English that bothers you, that confuses you, and that you think makes no sense and is stupid? I think there are many aspects to English that aren't logical and would bother me if I were trying to learn English as a second language. This thread is just people blowing off steam about the same kind of annoying things in Japanese.


Pokan -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/30/2006 11:39:53 AM)

I'm sorry, I forgot to answer your question in your old thread
However, at least it remains in some words, e.g. さかずき(酒杯, 盃, etc. in kanji and さかづき in old kana orthography),[image]http://photo3.yupoo.com/20060310/20060310092807_1911653752_m.jpg[/image]
たかつき(高杯) used for rituals.
[image]http://park.org/Japan/Kyoto/culture/hinadan/item/gifi/takatsuki.gif[/image]


Why have English people changed from using "druncfæt"(thank you AUX) to cup?

hakuman -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/30/2006 3:05:23 PM)

Same with 'c' - you can use either S or K instead.

reisender -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/30/2006 4:29:19 PM)

Thanks for the info Pokan. Interesting.

While browsing around, I found this quote

"An etymology in which a word is traced back directly to Old English with no intervening mention of Middle English indicates that the word has not survived continuously from Old English times to the present. Rather, it died out after the Old English period and has been revived in modern times"

A general statement basically saying everything changed in Middle English. I can't seem to find an Old - Middle English dictionary online, but I'm willing to bet that it changed then when Middle English was borrowing from everywhere trying to scrape together a lost language and in the process creating a new one.

As for not liking something about the English alphabet, I generally find cursive writing to be annoying. Many people will probably disagree, and that's ok since this is an opinion thread, cursive writing is as degenerative as katakana is.
It's more often than not, messy and difficult to read.

Har31n6er -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/30/2006 4:35:15 PM)

the word(s?) for sexual harassment threw me - SEKKUHARA. It doesn't even sound like the original word - too few syllables. In a nutshell, if anyone yells "SEKKUHARA" at you, just keep doing what you're doing until you get more syllables...


Kdynamic -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/30/2006 5:00:48 PM)

I think words like sekuhara are ok... they are an abbreviation of a gairaigo word from English that has totally diverged from anything resembling English. You just learn words like that as if they were any other Japanese word.

What bugs me is when Japanese people ASSUME I should know a word like 'sekuhara' simply because in their mind it's 'ingurishu.' I happen to know that one, but there are many I don't. In a meeting the other day with a tv camera man he kept saying 'wan shotto' and 'tsu shotto' and I had no idea what he meant. One take? Camera one and two?? Finally I had to ask him to explain. Turns out 'wan shotto' is a closeup of one person, and 'tsu shotto' is when two people are in the frame (three, four etc). How the heck was I supposed to know that?! That usage isn't even in progressive dictionaries like ALC, and it's totally different from what we say in English. But he still expected me to know it because he thought it was English, and he laughed at me when I had to ask him what it meant. [:@]


karbonara -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/30/2006 5:03:39 PM)

It's sekuhara, not sekkuhara.

Sexual = seku, harassment = hara. Quite a few loan words are shortened this way.

And once again, it's a Japanese word. It's a combination of two loan words, yes, but it is not an English word.


sejong -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/30/2006 5:09:15 PM)

So how do you spell them in Japanese?
かリふぉるにあ?
蚊利負尾瑠煮阿?


darg -> RE: The katakana haters club (8/30/2006 5:16:57 PM)

2 choices:

kanji: isn't it 加州 in Chinese? You leave Chinese names alone in 当て字(香港、上海、北京), so why not try it with western ones?
romaji: just leave it in roman letters since they seem to approximate sounds from other languages better than kana do. Kana is too limiting since it rarely breaks from the consonant-vowel pattern and doesn't allow for multiple or blended consonant sounds in a single syllable.

And for all the English haters out there, I have the perfect thread for you!
Why English Sucks